FLA 37: Samira Ahmed (05/07/2026)

Samira Ahmed with Squeeze singer and songwriter Glenn Tilbrook, Front Row, BBC Radio 4, June 2026

It was such a pleasure to welcome Samira Ahmed to First Last Anything, and invite her to talk about her earliest, most recent and wildcard record purchases. Samira will be familiar to many British viewers and listeners: she has been a journalist and broadcaster for well over 30 years, working in news at the BBC and Channel 4, and latterly in arts journalism – since 2014, she has been a regular presenter of BBC Radio 4’s nightly magazine Front Row. And I was able to tell her – slightly to her surprise! – that in March 2026, she had hosted her 750th edition of the programme.

Samira also presents the BBC News Channel’s Newswatch programme, in which viewers can comment on the Corporation’s news and current affairs coverage of national and world events. In addition, she co-hosts (with Graham Kibble-White) Through the Square Window, a most entertaining monthly podcast about television history.

Now, there’s a book: Samira’s excellent overview and analysis of The Beatles’ first film: A Hard Day’s Night, directed by Richard Lester, and first released in July 1964. Samira is well known as a Beatles devotee, having been a regular guest on Chris Shaw’s superb I Am the Eggpod podcast, and she has estimated that, in childhood, after the film was broadcast on BBC Television at Christmas 1979, she must have watched her off-air video recording at least once a week. 

Samira and I had a chat on Zoom on Easter Monday morning 2026 for about ninety minutes and, as you’d expect, The Beatles and television were never far away from our thoughts. But we also talked about why the 1960s continues to have such resonance – and of course about music in general. We hope you enjoy it.  

—–

JUSTIN LEWIS:

How did you first discover your own taste in music?

SAMIRA AHMED:

Top of the Pops on television was very important – and in fact, my parents did have some of the terrible Top of the Pops records with the girls on the cover in long socks and not very much else. I just remember putting one of them on, thinking, Great, this has got all the chart hits… but this doesn’t sound like them – and knowing that was not right.

Luckily, we had really good commercial radio in London, and I used to listen to Capital Radio all the time from the moment I woke up. I used to record the chart show at weekends, would write all the chart positions down in a notebook, and I did that religiously. That was a way in.

And then, around 1979, I started buying records of my own, properly. I know we’re going to talk about albums I bought, but the first single I bought, from the local Woolworths, was ‘Heart of Glass’ by Blondie.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

By coincidence, the first album I bought of my own – although I didn’t get it until 1980 – was Parallel Lines.

SAMIRA AHMED:

That was the first album I remember going out and buying as a new thing, and I got Debbie Harry to sign it when I met her.

—-

FIRST (1): THE MONKEES: The Best of the Monkees (MFP, 1974)

Extract: ‘Daydream Believer’

JUSTIN LEWIS:

So let’s talk about the very first records you bought yourself.

SAMIRA AHMED:

One year, just before Christmas, ’76 or ’77, my mother took me and my brother and sister up to central London, and we went to the big original HMV store on Oxford Street, the one that’s near Bond Street tube station. And I just remember rummaging through the bins and finding the Monkees – which I loved, that TV series was on all the time – and it was a sort of tie-in compilation album, with a lot of their greatest hits, but with photographs from the TV show.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Obviously we’re both too young to have seen the original series go out in Britain [BBC1, 31 December 1966 – 13 June 1968]. By the time we were watching them – repeats in the children’s afternoon schedules began in 1972 and ran for many years – they’ve been restructured. Songs would be shifted from one episode to another…

SAMIRA AHMED:

I didn’t know this!

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Yes, when the show went into syndication, they moved the songs around. And the title sequence that we all remember – the action-packed clip-heavy one with the bit where they run into the sea but it’s too cold so they run out again – came from the second series, and they just tacked that sequence on to many of the first series episodes when they were repeated. So they were substantially re-edited. But it was a very limited number of episodes that were reshown.

SAMIRA AHMED:

And was that everywhere or was that just the UK?

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I believe, in America as well – when it went on to Saturday mornings there next to all the cartoons. I used to find it weird why some of the episodes had the Monkees theme over the end titles, but on some of them, they had ‘For Pete’s Sake’ on them.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yeah, so what’s the story about that?

JUSTIN LEWIS:

‘For Pete’s Sake’ was the end theme tune for the second series episodes, but not the first series. But the strangest tracks ended up in the show. In one episode, which they repeated quite a bit, they included the song ‘Randy Scouse Git’ – which they had to call ‘Alternate Title’ over here for it to be a hit. And it’s so odd to hear that before you know anything about it. Because it’s a terrifying record in some ways.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I’ve been listening to a lot of Monkees recently. There’s a special edition of Headquarters (1967) which has got all the alternative versions of things like ‘The Girl I Knew Somewhere’. It’s just magnificent. And I keep thinking about their relationship to the Beatles. It’s like the Beatles in a parallel universe, isn’t it? Rather than being themselves and then others cottoning on to how good they are, it’s four people thrown together at random who all turn out individually to be talented, capable. Some of them are professional actors and comedians, and eventually they manage to prove that they can play and write. But it’s a battle. They’re having the same story as The Beatles, but it’s sort of inverted.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Well, the Monkees clashed quite a bit with the guy who was the music supervisor on the series, Don Kirshner, because they wanted more creative control. So he went off and supervised the music for the animated series The Archies – ‘Sugar Sugar’ and all that. In other words, make a television series where you can manipulate your act, because with animation you can do what you want.

SAMIRA AHMED:

It’s like the Beatles animated series [ABC (US), 1965–67], which was never shown here in the sixties.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

A couple of ITV regions did show them, later, in the 1980s, I think.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I’ve watched snippets of the Beatles animated series on the internet and it’s so horrifyingly awful. People have said to me, ‘You should cover that in your book.’ But no – there’s no reason I should. This phenomenon that emerged in America of making terrible child-focused content, often animated or near animated, just destroys the image. It’s lucky that Beatles cartoon series wasn’t shown more widely because it was terrible.

And the other comparison was the Bay City Rollers who signed up with for Sid and Marty Krofft from HR Pufnstuf for that show with Witchy Poo [Krofft Superstar Hour – Bay City Rollers, NBC, 1978]. I’ve watched an episode of that when I was writing a piece about the Bay City Rollers some years ago and it was just, My God, they’d been like the Beatles in Britain in the mid-70s and suddenly they’ve signed this terrible deal that’s going to consign them to hell.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I also thought – nothing to do with music – of the Laurel and Hardy cartoons [Hanna-Barbera, 1966], and the two of them were dead by then.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I think for us, for Generation X, the repeats of these things were both a blessing and a curse. The blessing was you got exposed to things like The Monkees, and the old Flash Gordon serials and Robinson Crusoe – they had a great power – and the great original black and white early slapstick films from Buster Keaton and Harold Lloyd and Laurel & Hardy. Yet the downside is we also got all these terrible, really mediocre animations like the Laurel and Hardy ones.

FIRST (2): ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK: The Sound of Music (RCA Victor, 1965)

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Back to HMV Bond Street, 1976 or 77, and while you were buying that Monkees compilation in HMV…

SAMIRA AHMED:

…I saw the soundtrack to The Sound of Music. Now, I had never seen it, but I had just started at a brand new, quite posh girls’ day school, and everyone there knew it, and everyone used to talk about it. They used to put on the soundtrack in the music lessons, and we used to sing ‘Do Re Mi’. And I was fascinated by this image of Julie Andrews on the cover. I had no idea what this film was about, but ‘Do Re Mi’ doesn’t feel like it was written for a film, you just think it’s a song that’s always been there, like a nursery rhyme. So I wanted to own the record, because it felt like everyone at school owned it, or their parents owned it, and I felt I needed to fill in these gaps in my knowledge. If you didn’t know The Sound of Music, it was like not knowing who Jane Austen was, or not knowing who Enid Blyton was. I felt I was an outsider, so I bought it for that reason. I read the sleevenotes, and it was very interesting listening to the soundtrack of a film that you’ve never seen and not quite making sense of it. And It was a while before I saw it.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

The film was first shown on British television on Christmas Day 1978, but I first saw it on its second showing: Easter Sunday, 6 April 1980, on BBC1.

SAMIRA AHMED:

That might have been the first time I saw it, because I started senior school in 1979 and I still hadn’t seen it then.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

It may be the only time it was ever screened in the evening rather than the afternoon because it’s such a long film. I saw it again a few days ago, I hadn’t seen it for many years. It has this real resonance, because apart from possibly Sgt Pepper, it’s the best-selling LP of the sixties. It’s actually quite a short soundtrack considering the film is so long, although there are huge swathes of the film with no music (part of the point of the film, I think) but also many of the songs reappear later in the film, in very different circumstances obviously…

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yeah, well, that singing concert at the end… We did tape it off television, possibly in 1980. In fact, I’ve realised I must have bought this album as early as ’76 or ’77 because when I started at the new school, I was eight years old – I started in year 4. And we had to have a recorder, and everyone else already knew how to play the recorder, so I used to teach myself to try and keep up. And that’s when everyone was obsessed with The Sound of Music.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

It occurs to me that ‘Do-Re-Mi’ must have felt like the building blocks of music education for at least 10 years after, because it is a song about how to create music.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I was reading about a new Radio 3 series starting up about the history of music, Key Changes, and I’m sure they’re going to feature ‘Do-Re-Mi.

[Indeed they did! You can listen to the episode in question (first broadcast on BBC Radio 3 on 1 April 2026) , and access the whole series, from here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m002tdbv]

JUSTIN LEWIS:

By the way – did you ever, in your formative years, get into being in bands yourself?

SAMIRA AHMED:

I can dream of being in a band, but no, I was never cool enough. I played the piano, that was very much a solitary instrument in my case – and it was classical piano. But one Christmas, I did actually ask my parents for the Sound of Music songbook and instead, my mother got me The Beatles Illustrated Lyrics [published 1969, 1971] with those really weird photographs of naked women spraypainted to look like Helter Skelter by Alan Aldridge. And I thought, Well, this isn’t what I asked for, but I’m interested in The Beatles, I do like The Beatles. And I learned to play a lot of their songs from that book before I’d ever heard them.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Interesting. Did it then surprise you when you heard the songs to discover what they sounded like?

SAMIRA AHMED:

No, not entirely, because the songs that I tended to play, the ones that were playable, were things like ‘Fool on the Hill’, which were very playable as piano solos, and similarly, ‘Little Child’ – some of the waltzy ones actually work quite well. I couldn’t possibly have heard all those songs for real, before I started playing them. But when I heard them, there was a sense of: I know this. It was a really nice feeling. This already existed, like it was in the folk ether.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I’m the same generation as you, two school years behind I think, and you don’t always know where you’ve heard these things before.

SAMIRA AHMED:

And nothing of it comes through being exposed to the later music at a very young age. So the first time I heard ‘Octopus’s Garden’ was Brian Cant or someone like Brian Cant singing it on Play School. And those songs, the ‘Yellow Submarine’ era of songs, a lot of the slightly psychedelic ones with all that imagery, were like fairy tale songs and you did encounter them at school, having them sung to you or having them sung to you on television.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Yes, children’s television really did seem to sort of break into that – psychedelic music worked well with it, it was colourful and fantastic. It was as if some people working in children’s television had been young people in the sixties and had grown up with this stuff themselves.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I think there were two different levels going on. I suspect a lot of people who were working in children’s television had all been, young people in the 60s and had kind of grown up with this stuff themselves. Maybe some of the presenters were of that generation, but I think a lot of the people making the commissioning decisions were older and they didn’t see the psychedelic references. They just saw it as a colourful song with lovely imagery.

—–

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Let’s talk about your new book on A Hard Day’s Night. It’s obviously on record what a big Beatles fan you are. And you say in the introduction to the book, that you ummed and aahed a bit about whether the world needed any more Beatles books. But you offer many good reasons why it needs yours. Had you been considering writing such a book for a while?

SAMIRA AHMED:

I’d been approached about writing a book and I had thought of writing something about Mary Whitehouse and the culture wars. Publishing is a strange place right now, and it was felt there might be trouble getting anyone to want to publish a book about Mary Whitehouse, whatever you might have to say about her. But I’d done a lot of research on her diaries, and I had a real sense of how you dig into archives, and what you look for and what you find, and how you make all these connections.

What’s always really interested me is joining the connections between pop music, the culture people enjoy, social history and politics. What’s changing in Britain at a particular time, and how do politicians regard it? Even in my own career, when I was a young reporter at the BBC [in the 1990s] I had done a lot of reporting on some of the rows about rave culture, when the government was trying to crack down on all these raves in fields, and were sending in heavy-armed police, and the big crackdown on the crusties at Stonehenge and all that stuff.

So all that was in the background.

And because I had lived in Marylebone in the 90s, very close to Marylebone Station, I used to visit the locations in A Hard Day’s Night. I loved that you could talk about psychogeography and how these places have a resonance, that this film was filmed in London, but it was a worldwide success – and so I started to think about writing something about it.

There was a volume of stuff about A Hard Day’s Night out there, and a lot out there in print which is not actually accurate. There’s a whole article about the night of the film premiere, it has all this stuff about who took who, and Patti Boyd just misremembered, confused it with something else – maybe the Help! premiere…

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Was that in a recent article, or one published at the time?

SAMIRA AHMED:

It was written in the early 2000s, I think. As a journalist, my attitude is that what you put in a book should be the absolute truth, and if we’re not 100% sure, if we haven’t got really verifiable sources, then it shouldn’t be in there. So Mark Lewisohn kindly agreed to be a consultant, and spent time looking over the manuscript and saying, ‘I don’t think this is true and this is why.’ I’m very pleased that this book is the whole picture – it’s not just the Beatles, it’s not just the music, and it’s not just the film, although obviously those are the three most important things.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

There’s always something new to know about the Beatles, which is quite unusual about a band.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I know there are fans with such a deep level of knowledge and I couldn’t compete with that, but writing as a journalist, where you’re trying to appeal to a general audience and a specialist audience at the same time… I tried to make sure that there was information there which people perhaps hadn’t put together. For instance, the scenes that were in the original script – there was a racist scene which I don’t think the Beatles ever got to see, and the producer said, ‘We’re not putting that scene in the film.’ When Ringo goes into the shop, when he’s parading and buys the hat and coat, there was a whole section where the script mentions a ‘typical Jewish proprietor’ as well a whole scene with him selling stuff to East Indian sailors and obviously making fools out of them. And Bud Ornstein [European head of production for United Artists] said, ‘That’s not going to go down well in the United States’, thinking about an African–American audience. And obviously that wouldn’t have dated the film well, for any of us.

Some of those things are documented because they’re included in Alexander Walker’s excellent book, Hollywood England (1974), the history of the film industry in the sixties, and he’d interviewed Bud Ornstein and Richard Lester, and so we’ve got a real sense of how that film was made. But also I got to talk to people like David Janson, who played the boy by the river in that scene with Ringo… and there was a whole other scene he was supposed to be in, and wasn’t, but which I think would have made the film even better. Sometimes, rushing to get things done on time, you miss a great moment of poetic completion.

I didn’t want to bother Richard Lester and he’s done so many great interviews, I had no shortage of material – interviews at the time, the Steven Soderbergh book in the 2000s. But I have sent him a proof copy and will send him a finished copy because the book is about him. Without him, this wouldn’t have happened. And I’d like to think the book gives some due recognition to his talent because the only major prize he’s won for his films has been the Cannes Palme d’Or for The Knack and How to Get It, ironically a film that’s dated really badly in one specific way only – the rape jokes.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

One thing I went and checked out was The Beatles’ love for Richard Lester’s early television work because they’d seen the stuff with Milligan and Sellers, things like A Show Called Fred and Son of Fred, and oddly, although A Show Called Fred began on ITV the same month that Granada first went on the air in the north of England region – May 1956 – that first series wasn’t shown in that region. They did later show Son of Fred, due to public demand and that must have been what the teenage Beatles would have seen. But Granada believed that A Show Called Fred wouldn’t have worked with the audience in the north, apparently.

SAMIRA AHMED:

How sad because Son of Fred, of course, got cancelled early.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

In the book you describe the film of A Hard Day’s Night as ‘like a wildlife documentary’. And you’re absolutely right. I don’t know if it’s a subconscious pun on ‘beetles’!

SAMIRA AHMED:

I didn’t go into detail on this, but it’s relevant: at that time, current affairs programmes like This Week [on ITV] would send a crew to spend half an hour with the Beatles on their way from the airport to a train station and just film them talking and then put that out as a half-hour current affairs documentary because they were that fascinating to people. I thought of that wildlife analogy when they arrive at the Scala Theatre for their press conference and the camera is locked off on the side and they walk into the foyer. And the image I had in my head was of turning a jar of stick insects upside down, and then you lift it, and they all wander off in different directions. And the camera watches them do that.

Coincidentally, if you look at all the Hard Day’s Night reviews which are quoted in the book, the number of contemporary newspaper critics’ reviews which describe them in animal metaphors… you know, they’re like as frisky as young colts or as charming and dangerous as jaguars compared to Cliff Richard, just like the cat who had too much cream. Some of these animal analogies are almost Freudian, the critics are obviously fascinated and quite sexually aroused by them – including some of the men, you know.

—–

LAST: DAVE BRUBECK QUARTET: Jazz Impressions of Japan (Columbia, 1964)

Extract: ‘Koto Song’

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I’d love to know how you came across this.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I started listening to a huge amount of jazz while writing the book, because you can’t listen to the Beatles while you’re writing, you have to concentrate. And it’s not that I regard jazz as background music, but the more I read about Richard Lester, and the fact that he loved jazz, it kind of makes sense. Apple have these great playlists, and so the Dave Brubeck playlist picked out this album, Jazz Impressions of Japan. Interestingly, it’s from 1964, the year that A Hard Day’s Night is being made.

I just love how unafraid this album is to say: ‘As an American, this is my American impression of Japan.’ It’s a bit like the soundtrack to You Only Live Twice – we know it’s not a Japanese soundtrack, but it does capture something through an outsider’s eye. Particularly the final track on that album, ‘Koto Song’, it’s just magical.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

That’s the one from that album they continued to play live quite a lot over the years. In fact, the Brubeck Quartet went to Japan, 4 May 1964, in those couple of months in between the Beatles shooting A Hard Day’s Night and the Beatles releasing A Hard Day’s Night. And Jazz Impressions was recorded in June. So they’d come back from Japan, and they’d had some ideas while they were there. For instance, the opening track, ‘Tokyo Traffic’ came about because when they arrived, they had to have a police escort through the city just so they could do the first concert. Brubeck was clear about it, that this wasn’t supposed to be them doing Japanese music, it’s simply, ‘These are the impressions we got’, from hearing Japanese pop music on the radio for instance.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yeah, when I stumbled across ‘Koto Song’, straight away you’re listening to something that’s connected to Japan. You get a sense it’s an impression. It’s just so brilliantly playful. I also thought: I’ve been to Japan a couple of times, and there’s a really interesting amount of modernist architecture there. They embraced a lot of it. There’s the Hotel Akura, which I think may have been pulled down now, but it was certainly there when I went in the spring of 1998. It’s one of those hotels that was built in about 1960, and it had this great modernist bar, like something out of a Rock Hudson/Doris Day rom-com, but in Japan. All the furniture and the setting of it was fabulous. So that place came to mind as I was listening to this album. I have very fond memories of my various trips to Japan.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

My father’s many years gone now, but my mum once happened to drop into conversation that they saw the Dave Brubeck Quartet live, at what is now called the Bristol Beacon. 1 June 1964, and it turns out they saw the Quartet just after that visit to Japan, they were on a world tour. So the Quartet must have come to Britain, then gone back to America and recorded Jazz Impressions of Japan. They never did a Jazz Impressions of Britain, which might have been interesting. Lots of Beatles covers or something!

SAMIRA AHMED:

[Laughs] Well, you could argue that the best jazz impressions of Britain are, again, by an ‘outsider’: Sonny Rollins’ soundtrack to Alfie, which is probably my favourite jazz soundtrack. And the more you listen to it, the more you get out of it, the more you hear all the different countermelodies.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Are you familiar with Brubeck’s work generally? Because this wasn’t one of the famous albums at all. It didn’t come out on CD till this century. It was very buried.

SAMIRA AHMED:

No, I own a fair amount of Sonny Rollins, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker – and some of that is because my ex-husband actually had a lot of jazz records. He never used to play them, interestingly enough, but he left them all, and I love them. And my very first boyfriend was very into jazz, and he introduced me to Miles Davis’s Birth of the Cool. So there’s certain albums that I hear, and I have really positive associations with my discovery of music and the world.

But my first proper love of jazz came earlier – the jazz vocalists like Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughan, and through them, Duke Ellington and all those great jazz composers and arrangers. More recently, really only in the last 10, 15 years, I’ve really come to know players like Sonny Rollins better. The soundtrack to Alfie is just amazing, the title track is the obvious one, but there’s a track called ‘Street Runner with Child’, and – like we were just saying about impressions of Britain – you’ve got all these different sounds going on in there. Someone running down the street and then suddenly at some point well into it, you’ve got two different melodies going on and they’re kind of crashing and then suddenly at the very end, the familiar theme suddenly comes in. It’s like a jazz equivalent of the Goldberg Variations.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Sometimes, I wonder how unwitting jazz quotations of things are. On ‘Tokyo Traffic’ on Jazz Impressions of Japan, Paul Desmond the sax player, for some reason, starts playing the melody of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen. It comes out of nowhere, but it’s there.

SAMIRA AHMED:

The Beatles are doing that in their own way, like how they’re quoting bits of a trumpet oratorio on ‘It’s All Too Much’ [Jeremiah Clarke’s ‘Prince of Denmark March’, aka ‘Trumpet Voluntary’, written c. 1700], a piece they use as a wedding march sometimes, or the ‘Marseillaise’ at the beginning of ‘All You Need is Love’, on which they’re also quoting ‘She Loves You’, aren’t they?

JUSTIN LEWIS:

They quote themselves, yes, which I don’t think had been done before on a big pop hit.

——

ANYTHING: DAVID BOWIE: David Bowie (Deram, 1967)

Extract: : ‘Come and Buy My Toys’

JUSTIN LEWIS:

So – your wildcard choice.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I’m trying to think where I first heard this. Even though I’m a big David Bowie fan, I never bought the albums, I always knew him by the songs and the singles. And I didn’t realise there were two albums called ‘David Bowie’. I got given the second one [sometimes called Space Oddity, released in 1969], the cover with his curly hair, as a present. And then I realised that the first album was actually something quite different.

I did an event at the British Library a few months ago about David Bowie. I was chairing a panel, with Paul Morley on it, and he had just written a really brilliant new book about David Bowie, in which there were all these insights into the influence of Anthony Newley. Anthony Newley is such an interesting presence in the early 60s, with his impact on all sorts of things.

After I read Paul’s book, I started listening to this album again. There’s an overlap with Oliver! and the musicals of Lionel Bart and the Anthony Newley sound. I’m just really intrigued by it. I’ve said this in connection with The Beatles – in a weird way, I always have a special love of ‘the early stuff’ because it’s the bud before the rose blooms. That’s more interesting to me. And this David Bowie album, it’s got the seeds of so much.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

He later said of this period, ‘I’m more Anthony Newley than Anthony Newley.’ And I remember as a kid, hearing ‘The Laughing Gnome’ [also from 1967] and trying to work out how he got from that to Ashes to Ashes or whatever, and thinking, ‘Can that be the same person?’ Once you hear this album, it makes a lot more sense.

SAMIRA AHMED:

It does make a lot more sense. I love that it’s somehow unashamed of being heartfelt in a very, very non-cool way. The magnificence of David Bowie is that he’s doing these things that don’t always land well at the time, but they’re unique and they’re original. And thinking about the jazz connection: Paul Morley’s book talked a lot about him listening to a chap called Joe Harriot, who did these amazing jazz tie-ups with Indian music, with Amancio D’Silva. There’s an album they did, which I nearly chose for this, called Hum Dono, which means ‘The Two of Us’, from 1969. There are all these jazz albums that influenced Bowie, that I’ve discovered through reading Paul’s book, and I think that jazz influence on his sound emerges very clearly much more, later on. He’s got all these different strains of music from different traditions, he absorbs everything and then he produces his own new… not versions exactly, but it’s like eating something and then what you create comes out of what you digested.

Joe Harriott & Amancio D’Silva Quartet: Hum Dono (1969). Not currently on streaming services, but you can hear the whole album via that link on YouTube.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

There’s also that element of spontaneity on those early Bowie records where he seems to be enjoying himself quite a lot as well. It’s sort of humorous and yet not humorous at the same time.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yeah. And I just like seeing the David Bowie who is much closer in time to the era of the Beatles and the Monkees. Because we think of him so much as a creature of a new era that’s to come from 1969, 70 onwards. He’s trying to take off in this era. He doesn’t quite manage it, but he looks a bit like other pop stars at the time. It’s not enough to be David Bowie. It’s got to be the right moment. It’s got to be the right music.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

And he’s an actor as well. He’s already reinventing himself every couple of years.

SAMIRA AHMED:

One thing that came out of that day at the British Library: there were these great films that were made about David Bowie by Francis Whately, a wonderful producer who was there to talk about them. He’s making another one now. They’re all on the BBC iPlayer. He interviewed Lindsay Kemp, the mime artist who David Bowie worked with, and Lindsay Kemp said, Oh, David Bowie was a terrible mime artist. So it was quite refreshing to hear that – we think to ourselves, ‘Oh he learned mime, and he used it, he was very skilful, and he was a trained actor’, but actually, the master that he adored thought he was terrible at it. I thought it was hilarious.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

The singing style got me thinking, too. I can hear a bit of Jarvis Cocker in this, I think. The vibrato is quite similar.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Well, the song ‘Uncle Arthur’ makes me think of early solo Paul McCartney.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Oh, ‘Uncle Albert’, isn’t it! Writing songs about uncles – Uncle Arthur, Uncle Albert, Uncle Ernie – you don’t really get that anymore, do you?

SAMIRA AHMED:

In the future, who will write songs about uncles and aunts when there are so many fewer multi-child families, people having fewer kids? You don’t have that big extended family, that colourful collection of characters in the hinterland.

—-

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I think you’re the first FLA guest where all your choices are from the same decade…

SAMIRA AHMED:

That wasn’t intentional(!)

JUSTIN LEWIS:

No, but everything’s sort of from those three or four years before you were born.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yes, because Sound of Music is ‘65. The Monkees are ‘66 to ‘68, aren’t they? Dave Brubeck is from ’64.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

And Hard Day’s Night is from ’64. There seems to be something about the 60s before your birth, that you keep coming back to. What do you think it is? Is it because some of the stuff is genuinely lost from that era? Or is it about joining the dots with memories?

SAMIRA AHMED:

The first thing I’d say is, people are very nostalgic about the 90s in the same way. I find that funny because, of course, you and I both were very much around. I was in my twenties, and I do remember it being an exciting time. And I remember thinking how self-conscious everyone was, [saying things like] ‘Oh, this is like the 60s’, you know – so the 60s remains that kind of golden moment. Though I suspect people in the 60s, if they were old enough, would have said the 20s was the time, you know, when all these women could vote and there was this new freedom in the air and there’s all kinds of illicit drugs and all that stuff going on in Britain.

When I talk to people who were making their careers in the 60s, I hear just how much economic opportunity was part of it. There’s a lot of employment: sixteen-year-old school leavers can walk into a job, and there are all these new crafts opening up. When I was looking at A Hard Day’s Night, I looked at how there were all these makeup artists with a new career opening up, they could train on the job and have status and are part of this major new creative industry of television. And television is at its peak – and there all these shows and formats have been developed. That show, Colour Me Pop, that experimental show to showcase colour on BBC2 (1968–70) where they were basically shooting beautiful on-location pop videos for bands – they look like art poems, don’t they? And they knew they weren’t competing with the Internet or any of that nonsense – there’s books, there’s theatrical happenings, but everything is experienced in real time and in the moment – and that’s part of what makes it feel intense.

Those people who were there have also told me that it felt like going from black and white into colour. But so much did change with the 60s and affluence, and those who remembered sweet rationing and all the rest of it, was exciting.

I also think the other part of the economic picture is the investment that went into civic structure of things. People can argue all they like about whether grammar schools were a good or a bad thing, but it is interesting how many working-class children got an amazing education through that system and went to art school or went to university. And people like Eric Idle, whose father died in the war, he went to boarding school, and had a hideous experience. But, you know, he got into Cambridge. I’m fascinated by this generation who had opportunities undreamed of, 20 years before they were born. In that era, they became great pop stars, artists, writers, filmmakers whose work still influences us so much today. So I think it’s about Britain investing in itself and it all reaping huge dividends.

The thing about the Beatles: yes, three of them went to grammar school – I think John’s the one who went to art school, wasn’t he? – but all of them grew up in a sense of a new world. They were all products of the welfare state and the new Education Act, and they didn’t have that sense of knowing your place. You could argue, that’s who they were, but this was a new world, and they weren’t the only ones who felt that way. You could have confidence in your own ability and things were cheap. You could get across town on a cheap bus to learn a new chord. I do keep coming back to how would anyone of that background have the chance to prove themselves today. Student debt, all those things, that’s so terrifying.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

It’s not easy to be a young person now, I suspect, because you just, because yeah, the economics are not good. In our day, if you got to university, you’ve got a few years afterwards to try and work out what to do next.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Or you could get a job straight away as a school leaver, you didn’t have to have loads of qualifications. And then the new industries were opening up. I just think there was an exciting sense of the country discovering itself, in different classes and backgrounds talking to each other. And I know there’s huge issues, you know, with racism and sexism and homophobia and all the rest of it, but they were starting to be challenged in the big cities, these great places of escape from some of those small-town attitudes. My parents came to London in 1960, and it was a really exciting time.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

There’s also the breakthrough of television, and it seems to me A Hard Day’s Night is partly about television and mass exposure. By the 1960s, it seemed to be the one thing that most people had – I think it was Dennis Potter, who started off as a TV critic, who described it as the great equaliser, because nearly everyone had access to it. The kids at school who didn’t have television at home… you felt so sorry for them because it felt like that’s where the information was coming from a lot of the time.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Although, I do wonder how far we’re selective about what we choose to remember because I think there was so much dross as well. A lot of really bad entertainment, things like The Black and White Minstrel Show. [JL agrees] That was obviously aimed at people who remembered the pre-First World War period, people who were born in 1900. I still find it hard to believe how long that show was allowed to continue. It’s really interesting how early on there was opposition to it and how often there was an opportunity to say, you know what, we could just not commission another series of this. And it somehow became a sort of symbolic fight, but between who and quite for whom I don’t understand, because people who really cared about that show would have been dead surely by the late 1970s.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

You’d have thought, wouldn’t you? I mean, I watched all sorts of rubbish, but I drew the line at that. I’ve since changed my mind slightly on The Good Old Days.

SAMIRA AHMED:

At least with The Good Old Days, you could argue that was an entertainment programme that represented this longer tradition. The Black and White Minstrel Show used to do more modern songs, with modern dancing. It wasn’t claiming to be in the past, it was claiming to be in the now! It was so anachronistic and out of time.

—–

JUSTIN LEWIS:

In your younger days, were you thinking about arts journalism? Because you did 20 years of what they used to call ‘hard news’. You mentioned that rave story for the BBC, but how often did you get to do arts and culture stories in those days?

SAMIRA AHMED:

I didn’t get to do them that often. I always loved arts and things. I did a degree in English literature. I did a big set of reports for BBC News about the first Star Trek convention to be held in the UK, in ’95. The producer I made those with, Stuart Buckman… he and I were huge Star Trek fans, and we looked at things like the social change that it documented and the business angles on it.

And then I did a great story in about ‘96 or 7 with Miranda Sawyer, who was quite a young journalist then, about girl power. I was produced by BBC World Service Television to do a piece about what is ‘girl power’ – is this the new feminism? So I was quite good at doing this.

At Channel 4 News there was more scope to pitch your own ideas and do longer films. And that’s where I really started to do some of the arts films I wanted. So I did a film about Robert Brownjohn, the big advertising man who designed the title sequences for Goldfinger and From Russia with Love, the projections. There was a big exhibition about his life and career [Design Museum, from Oct 2005], because he died quite young [forty-four, in 1970].

So I had great fun with that. I did one about Alan Fletcher (1931–2006), who was his friend, who was a very big figure in the design world as well, designed the V&A logo and things like that.

Then I started to interview quite a lot of film directors there, sometimes because they would come through London. And in the same way that people try and go on Front Row, a lot of people would want to go on Channel 4 News because you get a decent-length interview. So I interviewed people like Tim Burton while I was there.

When I did go freelance, I went to the BBC, starting in about 2012, and the first thing I did was present the Proms on BBC Four. And even though I was initially presenting shows like The World Tonight or PM [on Radio 4], if there was an arts story that I spotted in the paper, you’d certainly make the case for it. I think a lot of people want to pursue their own passions, don’t they – if you’ve got an expertise in economics or sport, and you spot a story, that’s likely to get on to that day’s show because you’re the presenter.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

So you could pitch these things quite easily then?

SAMIRA AHMED:

Well, at Channel 4 News, I was staff anyway, so there were enough people, enough shows, enough airtime, where you could work on these items as extras. When Smash Hits magazine folded [2006], I remember in that day’s morning meeting saying, ‘This is a really important magazine, this is what it meant to my generation – it was singles, not LPs… it was singing along, not analysing the lyrics.’ And they said, ‘Go ahead, make a piece about it for tonight.’ So some of it was just spotting a story and being able to bring it to the table – and then there was a willingness to commission it because it was airtime.

But it’s the same for you, isn’t it? You turn the passions that you’ve enjoyed all your life into something that you can articulate and express and share with others that isn’t just ‘closed’, there’s a general fandom which I guess I would describe myself as being part of.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

When you came back to the BBC, one interview I particularly remember vividly was the one you did with John Waters for Night Waves on Radio 3.

SAMIRA AHMED:

I was obsessed with John Waters. One of my favourite films of all time is the original Hairspray (1988). I taped that off television when it was shown in the early 90s. I used to watch it the way I used to watch A Hard Day’s Night – at least once a week, usually a couple of times a week. It just always cheered me up, and there’s just so much going on in there. We did the interview in London, in Studio 80A, the big studio upstairs [the largest music studio at BBC Broadcasting House]. And Ian Christie, the film historian, came in with some of his graduates and film students from Birkbeck, so we had a little audience to make it a bit more of an event. Like writing this Hard Day’s Night book, I prepared by watching every film John Waters had ever made, some of which were quite hard to get hold of. And some of them were still so outrageous to watch – it’s amazing and exciting what he was doing in the 60s and early 70s in Baltimore. I love that John Waters was on Radio 3 talking about his aesthetic of trash.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

In your twelve years on Front Row, do you sense a shift in the approach to arts coverage in broadcasting over that time?

SAMIRA AHMED:

We have 45 minutes per show [it used to be half-an-hour]. So my freedom’s certainly not decreased – if anything it’s grown. I’ve always tried to bring in interesting arts stories, I certainly push to say we should do more pop music. Some of that is about new acts, and we do people I’ve not necessarily heard of but have discovered – that’s very exciting. But equally, Tears for Fears, or on a forthcoming episode, The Damned. They’ve a new album, and I met some of them at the unveiling of the Marc Bolan blue plaque in Maida Vale, and thought they’d be brilliant on Front Row.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Yes, their first-ever telly was guesting on Marc Bolan’s Granada series, wasn’t it? Pretty much the last thing Bolan did.

SAMIRA AHMED:

And he’d invited them to join his tour after they got sacked from the Sex Pistols’ Anarchy tour. I keep thinking, ‘How do you get sacked from an Anarchy tour?’ And there’s such a lovely story about what Marc Bolan meant to The Damned – how he’d personally inspired Captain Sensible, who was a cleaner at the Fairfield Hall, and who saw Bolan and T Rex performing there, and thought, ‘This is what I want to do.’ So he went out and bought a guitar. You can spot the stories that I bring because they tend to be a lot of pop acts. I’ve interviewed Duran Duran twice. I didn’t expect that to happen.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Were you a fan back in the day?

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yes, and as we said earlier, I do unashamedly take in my records and ask them to sign them. With Stewart Copeland, I brought in all my Police records. I asked Matt Johnson from The The… and I had singles as well as albums. They just like that you know their work, going way back, you’re not just some johnny-come-lately.

But I think the programme’s changed in that we’re trying to cover more. I made a big thing when I first joined that we should cover graphic novels, video games, even though I’m not a video gamer and I don’t read as many graphic novels as I did 10 years ago. Equally, I didn’t watch much opera, which I do a lot more now.

Our audiences are people who read books, go to the films, listen to music… it’s liberating because you’re making it for people who care about this stuff already.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Were you somebody who used to watch all the arts programmes when you were growing up?

SAMIRA AHMED:

I’d watch certain episodes. I taped the Kenneth Williams South Bank Show (1994) which had John Sessions reading from the Joe Orton diaries, and Robert Stephens reading as Kenneth Williams. It was just so well cast.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Of your own journalistic work, what would you say you’re most proud of?

SAMIRA AHMED:

At Channel 4 News, for the 90th anniversary of the Armistice in 2008, I interviewed three or four survivors of the First World War. I remember we were sharing a crew with ITV, and we had a limited amount of time. But I suggested that when they lined up at that moment of the last post at the Cenotaph, that we could insert dream sequences, of flashes of what they’d experienced. One of them had been involved at the Battle of the Somme, so we inserted some footage from that. One of them had been at sea – might have been the Battle of Jutland – but we made sure we matched footage. So we had this black and white footage that would just appear silently during the film – we weren’t trying to be overly arty, but just trying to give you a sense of what these men had lived through and what their memories might be. And they had very different approaches to memory. One of them said, ‘I’ve told you people, I don’t like to talk about it, it was a long time ago’, and another one was very happy to share his memories. You had a real sense of them as individuals, as well as symbols.

So I guess I brought artistic technique to things I made, and some of that I must have absorbed from watching programmes growing up. But from arts programmes, I tended to look out for subjects I was interested in, rather than just watch anything and everything in a series.

Perhaps the story I did which I’m proudest of – not that it changed things in the long term – was a report I did for Channel 4 News in 2009, about so-called ‘corrective rape’ in South Africa. It was this phenomenon there where there was a lot of homophobia, and lesbian women were being targeted and raped and murdered. In one case, there was a football player called Eudy Simelane, who had been in the national women’s team and who was training to be the first female referee at the men’s World Cup in South Africa that year. And she was raped and murdered in the township just near her home, on her way back from a night out.

I had heard about the story from the charity ActionAid, and I set up the whole thing, and I flew out there for a week. I met the activists, the family, went to the place where she died, and I thought, how many women in South Africa… I mean, people like Reeva Steenkamp, Oscar Pistorius’s girlfriend. You know, it’s not about race, it’s about male violence and a particular kind of male violence about lesbian women. When I did that story, everyone suddenly noticed. They said that no-one had wanted to cover that story in South Africa because there was already so much rape, and so it’s ‘just another rape’ and it’s the rape of a Black woman from a township, so it was going to get even less coverage.

After I did the story – not that it matters by itself – it mattered to Eudy Simelane’s family that suddenly CNN and the BBC and every major network from around the world was covering the story. When the trial came up of her attackers, they covered it. Not all of them got convicted, but it was a start to have the crime acknowledged. So I was proud of having done my bit. I’ve had other stories like that, those are the ones you remember as being important.

—-

JUSTIN LEWIS:

We have to mention your Beatles scoop for Front Row, which came out of your visit to Stowe School.

SAMIRA AHMED:

In the summer of 2022, August Bank Holiday, my partner and I went on holiday to Northamptonshire on a mini-break. He knew the development team at Stowe School because he used to run a charity which donated a lot of money to Stowe. And he said, ‘Do you want to go and visit because it’s still the school holidays and they’d show us around?’ So we did, and I spotted this blue plaque on their theatre building, saying, ‘The Beatles played here, April the 4th, 1963.’ I thought, I hadn’t really known that – though somewhere I probably did, but it hadn’t really registered – but also I realised the sixtieth anniversary was coming up, in about eight months. I figured it would have been a concert like no other, because it would have been an all-male audience. And it was a private gig, and they never really did those kinds of things, they didn’t appear before toffs for money.

So I followed it up with the school, who put me in touch with two students who’d been there, and in the email exchange it was mentioned that ‘someone recorded the concert, but is this a Stowe myth?’ And within 12 minutes, one of those former students John Bloomfield replied, ‘Twas no myth, ‘twas I. I shall see if I can dig out the tape and see if it’s playable.’ He obviously knew he had the tape, but when we made the programme for Front Row, he told me that he had discussed it with his son, and he knew Front Row, knew me, and felt he could trust me. So I was hugely touched, but we didn’t know for sure, until the day we went to record at the school, that he had brought the tape and that he was willing to play it and share it. And I knew that tape was going to be a big deal, so I had a private WhatsApp chat with my editor and producer on Front Row, to discuss the developments. Then I let Mark Lewisohn know, and John played us the whole tape. And that became a half-hour segment on Front Row, which was the most downloaded episode ever, and I got so much feedback from around the world. Even from people who said, ‘I never really bothered or cared about the Beatles, but I really enjoyed this because it put the Beatles into a social context.’ You don’t have to love something to want to know about it, it’s just an important part of our history.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

What did it feel like, hearing the tape yourself?

SAMIRA AHMED:

You have a real sense of how the audience over the course of that hour are just transported, you know, and you can hear the songs, you can hear them playing… there’s no other concert like it.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

And probably one of the last times the Beatles can hear themselves playing. Because they’re not yet quite in a position where people are just going to scream all the way through.

SAMIRA AHMED:

That’s another reason why the films and the TV appearances are so important – that’s where you get to really meet the Beatles. In those concerts, you’re part of a kind of cult phenomenon, but apart from being able to see them, it’s all about being caught up in the moment. I would have hated it. I’m one of those people I never liked being in crowds and I’ve never, ever been one of those girls who would scream. You know, it’s all been in my thoughts, written down in my diary at home.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I find crowds quite difficult.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Yeah, and I’ve never wanted to be part of a crowd like that. So I think television and cinema were really important to helping the Beatles conquer the world because you didn’t have to be at one of their gigs.

—–

JUSTIN LEWIS:

In your formative years, were you buying the music press at all?

SAMIRA AHMED:

I have the very first issue of Smash Hits [1978]. I have a collection of them, and I remember bringing that first one in to show Miranda Sawyer [who first came to prominence as a Smash Hits journalist, from 1988] because she also had a great collection and we photographed them all.

After I read Smash Hits in the early 80s – and it was really fun and entertaining – I stopped. And then when I went to university in 1986, I think pop music went through a very bad phase. I might have changed my opinion in some ways, but I just remember I hated Radio 1 – there was an awful lot of Stock Aitken Waterman stuff that I didn’t like… some of it I did like, but most of it I didn’t. And so I retuned my radio and found Radio 4. So I didn’t buy any music press for that period at all.

Then when I moved to London, in ’89, ’90, I started buying Q magazine, bought loads of those, and one of my great regrets is having to move house at quite short notice, thinking, ‘I can’t keep all these’, and putting them all in the recycling.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

British Library have still got them all, I think.

SAMIRA AHMED:

Exactly. British Library have got everything. And then, in ’94-’98, the ‘good Britpop years’, I started buying the NME and Melody Maker, and enjoyed that. And now, I’ve started a subscription to Mojo, and Classic Pop – in fact, I have more magazine subscriptions now than ever before: Sight and Sound, the Art Newspaper, Architect’s Journal – because I’m president of 20th Century Society, which is all about modern design…  I’m a 20th century girl in every sense!

———–

Samira Ahmed’s marvellous book on A Hard Day’s Night is out now, as part of the BFI Film Classics series, published by the BFI and Bloomsbury. https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/hard-days-night-9781839029394/

Samira continues to present Front Row, usually though not exclusively on Mondays. The programme is broadcast on BBC Radio 4 at 7.15–8pm, Mondays to Thursdays, and is also available on the BBC iPlayer. Listen to current and past editions via the programme page here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/b006qsq5

The two Front Row editions about the Stowe School Beatles concert and tape can be found here:

Front Row, 3 April 2023: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001kpq1

Front Row, 19 June 2023: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001n1lr

Newswatch is broadcast on the BBC News Channel on Friday evenings, and repeated as part of BBC Breakfast on Saturday mornings. You can also watch episodes on iPlayer. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qjrk2

Through the Square Window, the monthly podcast which Samira presents with Graham Kibble-White, and which I highly recommend, if you have any interest in television and social history, can be found here: https://squarewindow.co.uk/

There is so much more that Samira has done in her career – and her website collects other articles, clips, blogposts and so on. Plenty to read, watch and hear, and also latest news on her book promotion itinerary: https://samiraahmed.blog/about

You can follow Samira on various platforms: @SamiraAhmedUK on what used to be called Twitter, and on Bluesky (@samiraahmeduk.bsky.social).

—-

FLA Playlist 37

Samira Ahmed

(For the time being, this site and project uses Spotify for the conversation playlists, but obviously I disapprove that Spotify doesn’t pay artists and composers properly, and other streaming platforms are available, as are sites to buy downloads and buy recordings. For consistency, you can also listen to the selections via YouTube (where available), and links are provided in each case, below.)

Thanks to Tune My Music, you can also transfer this playlist to the platform or site of your choice by using this link:  https://www.tunemymusic.com/share/weRUWYsljr

Track 1:

BLONDIE: ‘Heart of Glass’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6zdLTfH-As&list=RDM6zdLTfH-As&start_radio=1

Track 2:

THE MONKEES: ‘Daydream Believer’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsWrp9car78&list=RDvsWrp9car78&start_radio=1

Track 3

JULIE ANDREWS ET AL: ‘The Lonely Goatherd’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_6ioe2PQIA&list=RDo_6ioe2PQIA&start_radio=1

Track 4:

DAVE BRUBECK QUARTET: ‘Koto Song’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixU3_8tLZTw&list=RDixU3_8tLZTw&start_radio=1

Track 5:

SONNY ROLLINS: ‘Street Runner with Child’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W94X3gMCLIc&list=RDW94X3gMCLIc&start_radio=1

Track 6:

DAVID BOWIE: ‘Come and Buy My Toys’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VpH8WyoChk&list=RD9VpH8WyoChk&start_radio=1

Track 7:

JOE HARRIOTT & AMANCIO D’SILVA QUARTET: Hum Dono:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86TffDdUJDk&list=RD86TffDdUJDk&start_radio=1&t=37s

[This album is not currently on streaming services but will be added to the playlist, should it appear in the future.]

Track 8:

THE BEATLES: ‘A Hard Day’s Night’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx2TFk0vh1I&list=RDzx2TFk0vh1I&start_radio=1

Track 9:

THE BEATLES: ‘Things We Said Today’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NItAlTsPuQg&list=RDNItAlTsPuQg&start_radio=1

Track 10:

THE BEATLES: ‘I’ll Be Back’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJSTBNTac6k&list=RDfJSTBNTac6k&start_radio=1

Track 11:

THE DAMNED: ‘Nasty’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMQvYiSPy-Q&list=RDgMQvYiSPy-Q&start_radio=1

Track 12:

DURAN DURAN: ‘Save a Prayer’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCoxQna0JNo&list=RDNCoxQna0JNo&start_radio=1

Track 13:

DURAN DURAN: ‘A View to a Kill’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga9r_yaftY0&list=RDga9r_yaftY0&start_radio=1

Track 14:

THE THE: ‘This is the Day’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZYgKCbFbWY&list=RD7ZYgKCbFbWY&start_radio=1

Track 15:

SQUEEZE: ‘Is That Love?’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sigJ1DCyiI&list=RD0sigJ1DCyiI&start_radio=1

FLA 34: Emma Anderson (23/11/2025)

As a first-year university student, one of the first songs of the 1990s I cherished was ‘De-Luxe’ by the London-based quartet Lush, who were signed to the independent record label 4AD. I was in the habit of taping Annie Nightingale’s Sunday night programme on BBC Radio 1 at the time, and I’m pretty sure that’s where I first heard it. It opened their first EP, Mad Love, and I quickly bought that on CD. I wasn’t a particularly big follower of indie-rock at the time, though I liked The Sundays and Pixies and the Cocteau Twins, but there was something about the sound of Lush that drew me in.

Lush – co-founded by Emma Anderson and Miki Berenyi, and completed by bass guitarist Steve Rippon (succeeded by Phil King from 1992) and drummer Chris Acland – had already released a mini-album called Scar (1989), and they went on to issue a compilation of their early EPs (Gala, 1990), and three full-length albums: Spooky (1992), Split (1994) and Lovelife (1996). A relentless touring schedule, and especially the unexpected and devastating suicide of Chris Acland in October 1996, hastened the end of the group. Emma Anderson formed a new duo in the late 1990s, Sing-Sing, with singer Lisa O’Neill, and made two (in my opinion) undervalued albums. But in the past few years, Emma has re-emerged in her own right with the terrific album Pearlies (2023).

Emma and I connected via social media a while back, and I had wanted to talk to her for this series for some time, especially after I heard Pearlies. I was thrilled when she accepted my invitation. A new reissue of Lush’s Gala in November 2025 seemed an opportune time for us to chat at length on Zoom one Sunday about first, last and wildcard recordings, and it was in that same month that 4AD uploaded Phil King’s film of Lush footage, Lush: A Far from Home Movie, to YouTube. The 35-minute film is fondly dedicated to Chris Acland’s memory.

—–

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I always start with this question. I’m aware you had a slightly unusual upbringing, which we’ll come to, but what music did you have in your home early on?

EMMA ANDERSON:

This was probably before we owned a record player, but I had one of those mono tape recorders with the buttons at the front which were probably really meant for recording speech, and I used to tape stuff off the telly.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Oh, I used to do this.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I think a lot of people did!

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Before there were video recorders.

EMMA ANDERSON:

And your parents would walk in and start talking over it, and you’d go, [loud whisper] “Be quiet!”. But I used to tape stuff mainly off Top of the Pops and the Eurovision Song Contest.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

The Eurovision Song Contest, prior to things like Live Aid, was the most amount of music you’d see on TV in one go, really. You’d get three hours once a year. And it was also television from another country, quite often, there didn’t seem to be a house style for Eurovision like you tend to get for it now.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I also liked Eurovision because as a kid I loved geography, maps and stamp collecting and the rest of it [laughs] so Eurovision kind of fed into that. I collected all these cassettes of Eurovision which I used to listen to repeatedly.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I had a black and white TV in my room, from about the age of eight – an extravagance, I soon discovered – and am I right in saying you did too?

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yes, and the reason for that was, my dad was the secretary of a gentleman’s forces club in Mayfair and the flat we lived in was part of the building. Needless to say, it was a strange place for a child to grow up. We moved there when I was about three and we left when I was about fifteen so that’s quite a big chunk of my childhood. The flat came with the job and in the same building were hotel-like rooms which members could stay in, and all these rooms had rental TVs in them. So, my parents didn’t pay for the two rental TVs in our flat, they were paid for by the club as part of a deal, I guess.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

The reason I asked about a TV in your room was because of the possible relationship with the technology. The reason I had one… we weren’t rich, but I was a complete TV obsessive in those days, and it was a window on the world, and I did learn a lot from it.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I did watch a lot of TV and I was an only child as well so I consumed a lot of not just pop music but culture and films… I was quite unsupervised too so was even able used to sit up late and watch horror films which were on quite a lot in the 1970s!

The other thing was, because we lived in the club, and a lot of the members didn’t live in London, they’d come in from the Home Counties and they’d visit our flat and sit and a have a drink in the living room with my parents. So another reason to keep me occupied in my room was because there were constantly guests around and my parents wanted to keep me away from ‘the adults’.

It was an unusual, atypical upbringing. I didn’t live in a normal house in a normal street in somewhere like Dorking, if you see what I mean.

—–

EMMA ANDERSON:

Going back to ‘tech’(or lack of it!), I do remember having a toy record player when I was quite small, I think an aunt might have given it to me. It only took 78s and it came with its own records and the two I remember were ‘Tea for Two’ and ‘Doing the Lambeth Walk’! [Laughs]. It was not a technological marvel; it had one of those massive needles. But then, we got a ‘real’ record player (sort of) – my mother was quite a heavy smoker, she smoked Embassy cigarettes, which came with these little vouchers in the pack. She saved all these up in a jar, and there was a catalogue you could from and ‘pay’ with the vouchers so we got the record player like that. I must have been about ten.

To be honest, my parents weren’t massively into music; they were from a different era. My dad was born in 1919 [laughs], and my mum was born in 1928. He was forty-eight and she was thirty-eight when I was born both of which, of course, these days doesn’t seem that old…….

JUSTIN LEWIS:

…But in those days, it would have been.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yes, and I was adopted too (that’s another story for another time). Both my parents had been married before they were with each other and their heydays were from a time before popular music as we know it now, I suppose. I think there’s a watershed time where people’s teenage years and twenties were before the Sixties and The Beatles and so on.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Well, in your dad’s case, it would have been before the word ‘teenager’ even existed. That wasn’t a thing.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Exactly. They did buy some records when we got this record player, though: my dad bought some Edith Piaf. He liked classical too classical but popular classical – eg A Little Night Music by Mozart…

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I mean, Radio 2 in the Seventies – and Radio 4, actually – would play popular classical music.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yes, obviously they catered to a different demographic then. My mother also bought some records, She loved Frankie Vaughan but also The Ink Spots and Nat ‘King’ Cole’… Those are the ones I really remember.

—–

FIRST: LA BELLE EPOQUE: ‘Black is Black’ (1977, single, Harvest Records)

JUSTIN LEWIS:

It’s occurred to me there was this period in the mid-to-late 70s when there are these disco remakes of 60s hits. That version of ‘Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood’ by Santa Esmeralda, and ‘Painter Man’ and ‘Sunny’ by Boney M, and even ‘Macarthur Park’ by Donna Summer, like quite a European disco take on 60s music. And then there’s this.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I didn’t know, until I was going to do this interview, that ‘Black is Black’ was a cover. And the song was only about ten years old at the time – you know if you had someone today doing a cover from something in 2015, it wouldn’t feel that long ago.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Yes, They were Spanish, Los Bravos who did the original of ‘Black is Black’ – although it was Johnny Hallyday who had the big hit in France with it, so maybe La Belle Epoque took their cue from that version.

EMMA ANDERSON:

There was a record shop near where I lived, and I bought this there. What else from that time? Baccara, ‘Yes Sir I Can Boogie’, ‘Silver Lady’ by David Soul.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

This is all literally from the same few weeks, autumn ’77.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Oh ha – maybe I bought them all at the same time. And then – slightly later I remember buying ‘Northern Lights’ by Renaissance and we had the Grease soundtrack album. This feels like quite a strange thing for a ten- or eleven-year-old child to have, but I bought a Gladys Knight and the Pips album, Still Together.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

She’s quite underrated, I think, she’s got a brilliant voice. Sifting through all the interviews you’ve done over the years, I was reading how you started reading Smash Hits, around the same time I did, in the very early 80s. And it feels odd to think now that, in those days, they had a section on indie, the independent charts, they’d write about people like Crass.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yes, the first one I bought [25 June 1981] had Kirsty MacColl on the cover and it had a feature on Crass, a review of Cabaret Voltaire. I was obviously into pop, but I was fascinated by the indie page as well. I am planning on seeing Cabaret Voltaire live next year, funnily enough.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I inherited my first several issues of Smash Hits from my cousin Philip, who’s five years older than me, he happened to be getting rid of them, and I asked if I could have them. I think the earliest issue had the Undertones on the cover [26 June 1980], and there were all these references in it to Joy Division, because Ian Curtis had just died, but it took a while to work that out because I wasn’t a John Peel listener or anything like that.

EMMA ANDERSON:

It’s funny you mention The Undertones because in 1981, getting into more ‘alternative’ music (though still in the Top 40) really started for me and  I bought ‘It’s Going to Happen!’ by The Undertones, ‘Treason’ by The Teardrop Explodes, ‘Sound of the Crowd’ by The Human League, and ‘Everything’s Gone Green’ by New Order. And I can tell you where I got ‘Everything’s Gone Green’ from – we lived on Half Moon Street, just off Piccadilly, and at the Curzon Street end there was a newsagent’s which sold ex-jukebox singles really cheaply – you could tell because the middle was knocked out. I had no idea who New Order or Joy Division were at this point in time. I had just heard the song in the Top 40.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

At what point did you start to think, ‘Maybe I could do this? Maybe I could be in bands?’ Because you were going to gigs, right?

EMMA ANDERSON:

The first gig I went to was Japan, supported by Blancmange [Hammersmith Odeon, 23 December 1981], and then The Teardrop Explodes…

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Was that when the Ravishing Beauties were supporting?

EMMA ANDERSON:

That’s right, with Virginia Astley – and I remember Julian Cope poured honey all over his body in the encore. There was also Soft Cell. Echo and the Bunnymen – but I also saw Haircut One Hundred and Duran Duran, the more poppy end. ABC, I saw. My friends went to see Spandau Ballet, I had a ticket for that, but I was ill and I couldn’t go and I was gutted.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

And this is still early 1980s, before these groups are playing arenas. They’re playing theatres.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I saw Duran Duran, Japan, ABC and Haircut One Hundred at the Hammersmith Odeon. Teardrop Explodes, Soft Cell, Bunnymen, U2, were all at the Hammersmith Palais.. I saw Simple Minds at the Lyceum… these were fairly sizeable venues but compared to where some of them they went on to play… quite small, yes.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I can’t bear arena gigs, for the most part.

EMMA ANDERSON:

No, I can’t. At these gigs, we’d run down to the front of the venue when the doors opened and so we’d watch the whole of the support band. But you were asking ‘What made you think you could do this?’ Later on, I started to go to a lot more gigs in the back of pubs – and that’s when I started to think about that. Because it was a more DIY/post-punk environment, and you started to get to know people, especially in London when you’d get used to going to a huge number of gigs. Because it wasn’t glossy, the stage might only be a few inches off the floor. There was quite a community and in that era of late 80s London, people were squatting, a lot of people in bands were signing on – you could live in London cheaply. Camden and Notting Hill even were full of squats – hard to believe now, obviously. East London too – Hackney, Stoke Newington – and Brixton as well. But in that environment, you could pick up a guitar, bass or drumkit, and have a go. It’s a lot harder now.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Oh god yeah. I don’t know how anyone gets started now.

—-

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Before you and Miki Berenyi formed Lush, around 1987 you were both in separate bands playing bass, right?

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yeah, they were both kind of rockabilly/garage groups (before what ‘garage’ means now!). I was asked to join The Rover Girls. They’d done a lot of gigs without a bass player already then I think they thought, ‘actually, I think we need one’. We did a few covers in that band (actually it all bordered on cabaret a little) – we did things like ‘Folsom Prison Blues’ and ‘These Boots Are Made for Walkin’’. One of our original songs was called ‘I Fell in Love with a Kebab Man’ – which I had no hand in writing, I should add! It was a bit of fun really.

When we formed Lush originally, we were a five-piece. As you probably know, there was another singer, Meriel [Barham, who later joined Pale Saints]. We played a lot of gigs on the London circuit, supporting a lot of people, and then after Meriel left, the songwriting changed a bit.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

It feels like things started to happen quite quickly after ’88, you get signed to 4AD, you get to make a mini-album [Scar] in ‘89.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Personally, I don’t think it happened particularly quickly. I mean, you heard of bands like Flowered Up who played two gigs or whatever who ended up on the cover of Melody Maker. I do consider that we did pay our dues. We played in a lot of pubs supporting a lot of bands!

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I suppose I was just thinking in terms of how the priorities of the independent sector change completely during the career span of Lush (1988–96) because the definition of ‘indie guitar music’ changed. And it must have been a thrill to sign to 4AD because I know you were a fan of a lot of the bands.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Oh, I was a massive fan. It’s not a secret!

JUSTIN LEWIS:

And the sleeve art for 4AD releases just looked so special. I’ve never quite understood when people say, ‘As long as the music’s great, that’s all that matters’ because something on 4AD – or Factory come to that – always looked so special. It looked like something you wanted to own.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yes, they were pieces of art.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Were the Lush sleeves all Vaughan Oliver’s work?

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yeah, there was no collaboration with the band. You didn’t collaborate with Vaughan Oliver! It was fine to let him get on with it [Laughs]

JUSTIN LEWIS:

So did he design the sleeve not knowing what the record would sound like?

EMMA ANDERSON:

No, he was definitely inspired by the music because I remember that the scratches on the Scar sleeve were there because of the kind of raw abrasiveness in the guitar sounds. And then later, Spooky, which Robin Guthrie produced, was a much rounder, softer sound. And the sleeves reflect all that. Lovelife, Chris Bigg did that one (I don’t know if Vaughan liked Lovelife much).

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Looking back now, you and Miki did write certain songs together, but most of the songs are credited either to you or Miki as solo compositions. How did you get started as a songwriter?

EMMA ANDERSON:

When Meriel was in the band, we did a demo which we used solely to get gig at that time.. I wrote a song, Miki wrote a song, Meriel wrote a song, and I think the last one on the tape was ‘Sunbathing’ which was the only one that then made it on to a later Lush release.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

The Sweetness and Light EP, right?

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yeah, I remember when we were making that [1990], ‘Oh god, we need another B-side!’ [Laughs] So we went back to that demo tape, and since then, you know… Jenny Hval has covered it, it was used in a Canadian TV series a couple of years ago…  Of the other songs on that first demo, Meriel’s was actually the best! After she left, I did start writing differently. I don’t really know what happened, but something clicked where I did start writing better melodies and structures. How and why, I don’t know.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

When you look at the back catalogue of Lush, do you have a favourite album, one that you’re most proud of?

EMMA ANDERSON:

I can tell you the one I’m least proud of is the last one [Lovelife, 1996]. I don’t like being negative about our work, really, but I don’t think that one’s stood the test of time as well as the others. I think it lost something in that whole [mindset] of ‘Let’s go back to basics and get rid of the effects pedals.’ And obviously that whole Britpop influence was going on at that time. The only track I can listen to really off that album is ‘Last Night’, but that had a completely different approach as I was into trip-hop at the time and it shows there. Steve Osborne, who worked with Paul Oakenfold, mixed it so it has more of the dance, trip-hop vibe. I do love the outro of that song, actually.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Quite apart from the terrible tragedy that happened with the loss of Chris shortly afterwards, I wonder if one problem Lush faced after the shoegazing scene was you never seemed to be considered part of subsequent scenes, which always puts established bands at a slight disadvantage. Because the music press had this idea of what category everything should be in. And also because 4AD put out two singles on the same day (‘Hypocrite’ and ‘Desire Lines’ in 1994)…

EMMA ANDERSON:

Oh yeah, that wasn’t our idea.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

…which may have seemed like an inspired idea when they’d done it with Colourbox [‘The Official Colourbox World Cup Theme’ and ‘Baby I Love You So’, both released on the same day in 1986], but the indie world was entirely different back in the eighties.

EMMA ANDERSON:

That idea came from our American A&R man, Tim Carr, and 4AD ran with it; there was a feeling that we weren’t going to get into the top 40 anyway, so it was, ‘Let’s do something a bit weird and sabotage things’ – why?!! But we had been in the Top 40 (‘For Love’, January 1992) but it charted quite low, and while ‘For Love’’s a great song, it was released on 30 December [1991], and it was a very quiet week.

But the other thing [by ‘94] was that almost everyone in the industry around the band was so obsessed with the idea of breaking America.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Did you have a profile in America particularly? I know you had records coming out there, and ‘De-Luxe’ had got on the alternative rock radio playlists over there. Maybe it’s my age, but I feel very tired when I read about bands touring America for months on end for not particularly enthusiastic audiences.

EMMA ANDERSON:

We were signed to 4AD for the world and they had a licensing deal with Warners/Reprise. It was great that Warners were behind us there, and we toured a lot, and did things like Lollapalooza which, actually, I really loved. I had a great time. But, alas, I do think America took its toll on the band mentally and physically. Having said that, the audiences were actually very enthusiastic and we did build up a very good fanbase there, which exists to this day. But we didn’t sell a million albums, much to the disappointment of management/labels etc.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I was quite surprised to find out quite how much touring in America you did.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Part of the problem, I think, was the band members had different ways of approaching this. We all enjoyed different aspects of touring (and to be honest of the whole business and being in a band anyway). I personally wasn’t particularly into these long tours and endless weeks away from home. One tour was OK but then not long after came number two and then number three. Miki had spent a lot of time in America, her mother lived there, so she was much more used to being in the US. I think Phil quite liked it; he had never been to America before being in Lush. I didn’t hate it but, I have to be honest, it was gruelling. On the last album, we were doing this tour of shows put on by local radio stations, all these gigs where the punters got in for free. They were throwing bottles and shoes at the stage and when I told management that morale in the band was low, they said, ‘You’re only here so we can get the radio station to play your record.’ But you’re just thinking, ‘Is this really why I wanted to do music?’

JUSTIN LEWIS:

You were doing a lot of TV back in the UK, round about Lovelife time. Is it true you did Live and Kicking one Saturday morning?

EMMA ANDERSON:

That was one of the better ones! We had a very good TV plugger, the late Scott Piering. We did Top of the Pops [for both ‘Single Girl’ and ‘Ladykillers’] … Big Breakfast with Zig and Zag, twice. This Morning with Richard and Judy, we went up to Liverpool to do that. Then there was Pyjama Party [co-hosted by Katie Puckrik and a young Claudia Winkleman], Hotel Babylon with Dani Behr, Dear Davina… We did some quite trashy stuff around the Lovelife time.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I’m surprised I don’t remember seeing you on these, I used to watch quite a lot of night-time TV back then.

EMMA ANDERSON:

We did All Rise for Julian Clary [courtroom mock-up variety show for BBC2]… him and Captain Peacock [Frank Thornton] from Are You Being Served? That was Phil’s moment of ‘How low can we get with this?’, that show. So embarrassing.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

In what capacity were you doing that?

EMMA ANDERSON:

Basically, there was this young girl – about 12 years old. She’d collected a load of NMEs, a few hundred probably, and somebody had chucked them out by mistake. She was so upset that either she or somebody else wrote to this programme who obviously then contacted the NME who got together all these [replacement issues]… And our role was to come on and present this girl with all these NMEs. That was it.

—–

LAST: TAYLOR SWIFT: ‘The Fate of Ophelia’ (2025, single, Republic Records)

 JUSTIN LEWIS:

You mentioned this as something you wanted to bring up.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I’m going to make a massive admission here: I don’t really consume a lot of new music. My finger is not on the pulse of new releases. But this obviously came to my attention because you can’t really get away from it. I don’t really have an opinion on Taylor Swift – I never understood why she was so massive, but I’ve also been intrigued by why she’s so massive. But I do think this single is alarmingly good. I cannot get it out of my head. I go to bed singing it, and I wake up singing it. The video is amazing, and then of course on Instagram when you look at one thing – in this case ‘the dance’ – the algorithm sends you all these clips, so I’ve now watched about fifty different people all doing ‘the dance’. And I’ve realised this really is quite a phenomenon.

So then I looked into the background of it, because I’m always interested in the production side, and it’s Max Martin and Shellback who’ve both worked with Britney Spears amongst others. And then, I started breaking down the actual song in my head. So there’s a chorus, but then as I said to my daughter, ‘It’s like there’s a post-chorus.’ And she said, ‘Of course there’s a post-chorus.’ My daughter’s been getting into K-Pop and that’s got post-choruses. I thought I knew about pre-choruses. But then I realised, actually, that there’s a song I’ve got on my Pearlies album called ‘The Presence’ and that’s got a post-chorus on it!

So I think I brought this Taylor Swift song up because it’s just made my brain ticking about lots of things. It’s quite fascinating, and so I am starting to understand why she’s so massive.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

There’s another thing I was going to say about Taylor Swift which I find a bit off-putting. With her previous album, two hours after that ‘dropped’, there was another album that came out immediately.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Oh, I was vaguely aware of that, yes.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

So what they said this time was: With the new album, no extra songs after it comes out, this is the album – only to then bring out lots of limited edition formats, each with one extra alternative version and demo of the existing songs on the album, which technically means there were no new extra songs, but it did mean that all the fans felt obliged to shell out for all these extra formats – and especially given her fans are often really young… I find it all a bit cynical.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yeah, as much as I think aspects of her are great… that whole re-recording her back catalogue. You can slag off your original record company, but they put the work in in the early period. Is that taken into account? Without the work they put in, would you be able to do this now? But I get the idea that the fact they own your material is obviously quite an anathema to a lot of people, especially if you become huge (as she has done).

—–

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I wanted to ask you about Sing-Sing, the duo you formed after Lush broke up. Was this a way of trying to do something totally different from Lush?

EMMA ANDERSON:

After Chris’s death [Oct 1996], that whole year was just… awful. Even before Chris died, it’s not a secret, I wanted to leave the band. My way of coping after, in a way, was carrying on, and quite quickly start writing some more songs. But at that stage, I didn’t have a singer and I didn’t think I could sing.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I mean, obviously, you were singing on the original Lush records.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Backing vocals, yes, which is completely different from doing lead which I had never really done at all. In fact, around 1997 I did some demos which 4AD paid for as they were interested in hearing new material and Pete Bartlett – our soundman who’d produced Lovelife – produced them in his flat. I gave them to [4AD founder] Ivo, and he said to me [laughs], ‘You can’t sing, Emma’. (Looking back, though, this is funny because Ivo actually really loves Pearlies, my solo album, and he absolutely thinks I can sing now. This actually means a lot to me as I have really obviously always valued his judgement.) Anyway, then myself and the remaining Lush members got dropped so I went looking for other singers. I found Lisa [O’Neill] via a couple of ways. She worked at an animation company called Bermuda Shorts with a really old friend of mine, Bunny, who I knew from school, but she also went out a guy who shared a flat in Camden with a guy that I was going out with. PLUS she’d also sung on the hidden track on a record by Mark Van Hoen’s project, Locust, an excellent album called Morning Light (1997). PLUS another connection: my friend Polly worked at a PR company called Savage and Best – they did Pulp, Elastica, Curve etc. John Best gave me a promo cassette of Morning Light. So, I thought, ‘Maybe this is meant to be’ – and we started working together.

The other thing about Mark Van Hoen was that he was an electronic musician and a whizz-kid programmer. After being in a traditional band set-up with a drummer and a bass player etc, for me, that was so refreshing. All the records I had made before, everything recorded had been recorded on to tape but this way you could just sit around the computer and it was BANG – it all got done very quickly and smoothly. But I still wrote songs in exactly the same way, and Lisa wrote songs too.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Did you write together in Sing-Sing, or were these songs separately written compositions?

EMMA ANDERSON:

It was slightly different. Lisa couldn’t play an instrument, so she’d come up with melodies. Sometimes I’d flesh them out a bit, eg ‘I’ll Be’, and sometimes Mark would put chords to her melodies. But they were still her songs, and obviously her lyrics. But the whole process was just so different because it was of the computer-centric process. I’d never really done it like that before, and Mark’s such a excellent programmer. There were a few samples on the record, which were a nightmare to clear, legally [laughs]. But just watching him do it all was amazing, because he’d just pull out a record and say, ‘This would make a good drum sample’. And it would fit perfectly! It was a real eyeopener, and I enjoyed it immensely.

But then the problems weren’t about making the records, it was about getting them out there. I wasn’t on 4AD anymore…

JUSTIN LEWIS:

What was it released on in the end?

EMMA ANDERSON:

‘Feels Like Summer’ [the first version, 1998] came out on Bella Union but that was never going to be a permanent label. After that we actually became signed by Sanctuary and made the album with them but there were internal shenanigans and we got dropped and we were able to take the album with us, so I went to Alan McGee, who’d just started Poptones [his label founded after the end of Creation Records]. I knew Alan because I’d worked for Jeff Barrett (who owns Heavenly Records now but had been a PR) in the late 80s which was in the Creation Offices at Clerkenwell. And Alan said ‘yes’.

It’s funny now, because Lush are really celebrated – there’s all these reissues – and everyone loves shoegazing, and Slowdive and Ride and My Bloody Valentine. But in the late 90s, Lush were not seen as a particularly cool band. I was in my thirties when I was doing Sing-Sing and it’s hard to believe this now this, but ‘older’ women in music weren’t particularly respected back then. Now you’ve got PJ Harvey, and Björk, and Alison Goldfrapp, Kim Deal, all in their fifties, early sixties, you know? And it’s fine. But back then, people would literally say to me, ‘Emma, you’re over thirty, no-one’s interested’, even though the music was good, it was really good. But I think it didn’t really fit in with the early noughties time, The Strokes and The Gossip and Kaiser Chiefs and all that.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Not really my thing either, that. I had just turned thirty, in 2000, and I find that period of guitar music in the early noughties even harder to listen to than Britpop. I mean, I like some Britpop – I was suspicious of the tag, but most of the bands made at least one record I liked. But I find the noughties a very strange period to revisit now. I wanted to listen to something else. But the other thing about this period – you got a ‘proper job’ as it were, right?

EMMA ANDERSON:

I’d worked before Lush, As I said, I worked for Jeff for a while, and after that then obviously Lush was my job. But by 2000 I had to go back into the world of day jobs. My first job was working for Duran Duran, I was their PA, 2000–02 and it was when the line-up was Nick, Simon and Warren Cucurrullo. Now obviously they’re back with John and Roger and they’re playing arenas, but when I worked with them wasn’t their most memorable period, although the album I worked on at the time, Pop Trash, was actually pretty decent. The single that came off that, ‘Someone Else, Not Me’, was really good. So I did that for a couple of years, and Sing-Sing were going at the same time. Then I worked as a management assistant at the company that managed Goldfrapp, Ladytron and a band called The Shortwave Set. I did that for two or three years, and then worked for the PR company Hall or Nothing who did Oasis and the Manics, as office manager. After that I moved to Brighton and got a job at 13 Artists, which is the booking agency for Arctic Monkeys, Suede and Radiohead amongst others.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

One thing I often think about, with being in a band: there must come a point when you start thinking, ‘Where are we today?’ You know your role is to do a gig and then travel to the next gig, but when you have an ‘ordinary’ job, you at least have a sense of place.

EMMA ANDERSON:

There’s a lot to be said for actually living a relatively normal life, you know?! Not knocking being in a band, but the weird thing is, Justin, I was only actually in Lush for about eight years. I’m fifty-eight but people associate me solely with being in Lush though it took up a relatively small portion of my working life. I’ve actually been an office worker way longer than I was a professional musician! It’s true!

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I’ve got a quote, which I’m going to read back to you, and you said this in 1992, so I appreciate you might think differently now, but I’ll mention it because it ties in with what you just said. To Simon Reynolds, in The Observer newspaper: ‘It’s weird to hear people talking about us as pop stars. When we were young, I used to be mesmerised by them, and even now I think we still can’t help seeing ourselves as part of the audience.’

EMMA ANDERSON:

Even now sometimes people say to me, ‘You’re a pop star’ and I baulk at it to be honest… I suppose I consider pop stars to be Prince or Beyoncé or Taylor Swift. I do remember that quote, and I was a little criticised for saying it, actually, I seem to remember.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

There’s a lot of sense in it.

EMMA ANDERSON:

There was that whole Madchester thing at the time… there was a lot of swagger going around.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

‘We’re the best band in the world’ type of thing.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yes. And journalists kind of liked that. Of course they did. To me, being in a band was just something I did. I was never particularly ambitious. I always felt that I just picked up a guitar, wrote some songs, got signed, and we toured, we were able to do that.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

With your solo album, Pearlies, which I can’t quite believe already came out two years ago: I gather some of these songs date back to the Lush reunion from about a decade ago.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I had one or two songs, and some bits left over from the reunion (as I thought we were going to make an album. Or three). But that’s how I write anyway, in bits and pieces and I assemble them into whole songs sometimes. And I thought, I’d quite like to carry on. Originally, I thought I’d find another singer, again, like I had done with Sing-Sing. I did some demos with Audrey Riley [great cellist, many credits], and we did three tracks, but even with that, I said, ‘I’m not singing’, and she said, ‘Emma, you can sing! Just do it!’ She got in one of her students, a Norwegian girl called Anna, who sang the songs very beautifully, but I didn’t end up doing much with those demos. And then when I spoke with Robin Guthrie about doing some more demos, he said, ‘I will only do them if you sing. Forget it otherwise’ And that made me think, ‘Maybe I should do this.’

Then COVID happened, and Robin lives in France… but I realised there’d been all these people telling me I couldn’t sing all that time. Even when I was at school, I was quite into music, I did like singing, and there was a choir which I so wanted to get into. Every term I auditioned for it, and he’d say, ‘I’ll put you on the reserve list’ – as he felt a bit sorry for me.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I’m really glad you did do it for Pearlies. Because it’s all about having personality in your voice anyway.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I don’t think it’s just about the voice, though. The thought of standing at the front of the stage in the middle, being the focus, petrified me [laughs].

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Oh I can understand that.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I don’t have that personality. I don’t really enjoy being the centre of attention. I was perfectly happy being at the side with Lush and Sing-Sing – in fact, I found it preferable.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Thinking about it, when you see a band on TV, the camera tends to focus on the singer, they only cut away to someone else when the singer isn’t singing. You haven’t been touring the record, but I know there are good reasons for that.

EMMA ANDERSON:

The main reason is that I’m a single mother of a school-age child so going on tour is – well, nigh on impossible. I also work (I am a bookkeeper) and there are some financial constraints to touring too, especially as I am a solo musician now.

Some people have suggested, ‘Oh, just do it with you and a laptop.’ But I don’t want to do it like that, I’d want a proper band – and if it was just me and a laptop and a guitar, and it was a bit rubbish, you get people filming things and putting them on YouTube. So there’s an element of caution with it as well.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Speaking of YouTube, I note that the Lush film, Lush: A Far From Home Movie – which was quite hard to see here, but was on the Criterion streaming site in America – is on YouTube now.

EMMA ANDERSON:

It’s Phil’s film, and we did some live showings of it. It was great, actually. It’s a sweet film.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

It’s nice and prescient that someone thought to capture that footage at the time. We’re used to doing that now on a camera or phone, but in the 90s, people weren’t thinking like that so much. So even to just have some bits filmed, you weren’t necessarily going to do anything with them.

EMMA ANDERSON:

Yeah, Phil had a Super-8 camera, so black and white, no audio. You could only film literally a few minutes at a time. So it’s very evocative. Even though it was filmed in the 90s, because of the quality it looks like it could have been filmed in the 50s. And there’s lots of Chris in it as he was so good in front of the camera.

—–

ANYTHING: GAVIN BRYARS: ‘Jesus’ Blood Never Failed Me Yet’ (1975, Obscure/Island Records)

JUSTIN LEWIS:

I always have to take a deep breath before listening to this because I find it so overwhelming.

EMMA ANDERSON:

In a way, I chose it because you asked for something that made you think about music differently. I did my degree at what was then Ealing College of Higher Education but it is now, after many name changes, the University of West London. The degree was called Humanities – you did six subjects in the first year, and then you majored in one and minored in two. My major subject was History of Art but one of the minor ones was Music, and there was a teacher and lecturer there called Allan Moore, who’s a musicologist. He used to play us things like Karlheinz Stockhausen’s Stimmung, and also this by Gavin Bryars. I just remember sitting in this lecture room, in this college, and him putting this on, and being completely transfixed, as in ‘What am I listening to here?’ This obviously old recording, of this old guy singing, outside, looped over and over, with these strings that built and built… It’s a very emotional experience.

But it’s quite important to me that I actually heard this at college, rather than on the telly or at a mate’s house. And I’ve got the record now.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Which version is this, because there are several?

EMMA ANDERSON:

The other side is ‘The Sinking of the Titanic’.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

Ah, the original record, that came out in the 70s.

EMMA ANDERSON:

And I noticed, when I knew I was going to do this interview, that Tom Waits has also appeared on a recording. Which makes total sense. And Audrey Riley who I mentioned earlier – she’s played with Gavin Bryars as well, she knows him quite well. So I’m not an afficionado of modern classical music or whatever, but this has meant a lot to me and made me see things in a different way. And it was interesting working in Lush with Audrey on string arrangements… I mean, when I was a child, I really wanted to learn music, the piano specifically. I begged and begged to have piano lessons, but I wasn’t allowed, basically. So I do sometimes wonder, had I had piano lessons and got into that world, my life might have been a bit different.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

That’s a real shame you never got that opportunity then. Is ‘Jesus’ Blood’ classical music or not, then, I wonder? Because it lies somewhere between lots of things. I have a feeling I first heard this in the early 1990s, because incredibly, this was on the Mercury Prize nominations list [the 1993 list, and a three-minute edit of the Tom Waits recording which you mentioned was included on a Mercury sampler album alongside PJ Harvey, Suede, Apache Indian and the Stereo MCs]. They used to put out a sampler every year of the Mercury nominations, not sure they do this anymore, but at the end there’d always be the token classical record, which would never win, and you wish it would sometimes.

But the thing about an extract of something like this – it doesn’t really work. You have to have the whole thing. [EA agrees] Because it takes about five minutes for the strings even to start.

EMMA ANDERSON:

It’s very gradual which adds to the emotional weight of it.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

And then the effect of having the strings start to drown out the man’s voice – and at times, you only hear the man’s voice whenever the strings pause, before starting again. I have to ration it because it’s one of those pieces I wouldn’t want to get too used to. It’s a record that’ll stay with me for ever.

This is the kind of record I was thinking of, with wildcard choices for this textcast. I couldn’t get my head round repetition when I was very young, and what shook me out of that was firstly modern classical music, and then also dance music. Because that was also about minimalism and loops. I suddenly realised I’d have to listen to music differently. Because I was 17, 18 when acid house came in.

EMMA ANDERSON:

I was actually really into dance music – I used to go clubbing quite a lot in the late 80s/early 90s and I’ve got a few records from that period.

JUSTIN LEWIS:

What would be an example of an acid house ‘anthem’ that would evoke that time for you?

EMMA ANDERSON:

‘Strings of Life’ by Rhythm is Rhythm… I loved that. ‘The Real Life’ by Corporation of One, which has got samples from Simple Minds’ ‘Theme from Great Cities’ and then it cuts in with Queen’s ‘Bohemian Rhapsody’. What else? ‘Where Love Lives’ by Alison Limerick was always a favourite. ‘Sweet Harmony’ by Liquid. Sometimes I’d hear things at the time but wouldn’t know what they were. But I was quite into this stuff, because I worked for Jeff and there was that whole club scene… I went to the Hacienda a few times, Shoom, Milk Bar with Danny Rampling…

I expect people maybe assume I must only be into My Bloody Valentine and Cocteau Twins… but I’ve got quite a broad taste (I like to think so anyway!).

—-

Lush’s Gala compilation was reissued on 4AD on 14 November 2025, marking its 35th anniversary, and completing the label’s reissues of the group’s back catalogue. More information here: https://4ad.com/news/22/9/2025/35thanniversaryeditionofgala

Phil King’s film, Lush: A Far from Home Movie, can now be seen in full on 4AD’s YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow3jEIV0s74&list=RDow3jEIV0s74&start_radio=1

Emma Anderson’s 2023 solo album Pearlies is out on Sonic Cathedral Records, as is its 2024 remixed version Spiralée (Pearlies Rearranged). Further information at her Bandcamp page: https://emmaanderson.bandcamp.com/music

You can follow Emma on Bluesky at @emmaandersonmusic.bsky.social, and on Instagram and Facebook at @emmaandersonmusic.

—–

FLA Playlist 34

Emma Anderson

(For the time being, this site and project uses Spotify for the conversation playlists, but obviously I disapprove that Spotify doesn’t pay artists and composers properly, and other streaming platforms are available, as are sites to buy downloads and buy recordings. For consistency, you can also listen to the selections via YouTube (where available), and links are provided in each case, below.)

Thanks to Tune My Music, you can also transfer this playlist to the platform or site of your choice by using this link: https://www.tunemymusic.com/share/4z65FUBy0X

Track 1:

LA BELLE EPOQUE: ‘Black is Black’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3nf4UsEdlA&list=RDv3nf4UsEdlA&start_radio=1

Track 2:

EDITH PIAF: ‘Je ne regrette rien’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r454dad7tc&list=RD4r454dad7tc&start_radio=1

Track 3:

RENAISSANCE: ‘Northern Lights’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKBJqHvQvjg&list=RDHKBJqHvQvjg&start_radio=1

Track 4:

CABARET VOLTAIRE: ‘Nag, Nag, Nag’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWGZWYrR5Nw&list=RDpWGZWYrR5Nw&start_radio=1

Track 5:

THE UNDERTONES: ‘It’s Going to Happen!’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQtaqgW6MXg&list=RDaQtaqgW6MXg&start_radio=1

Track 6:

THE TEARDROP EXPLODES: ‘Treason’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8cEIsFX-A&list=RDrV8cEIsFX-A&start_radio=1

Track 7:

ABC: ‘Date Stamp’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=434lTbIZsJ0&list=RD434lTbIZsJ0&start_radio=1

Track 8:

NEW ORDER: ‘Everything’s Gone Green’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v5ivB7bM1k&list=RD4v5ivB7bM1k&start_radio=1

Track 9:

JAPAN: ‘Gentlemen Take Polaroids’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlyI2isjAas&list=RDSlyI2isjAas&start_radio=1

Track 10:

LUSH: ‘Thoughtforms’ (2nd version):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYXR78pf7k&list=RDgWYXR78pf7k&start_radio=1

Track 11:

LUSH: ‘Last Night’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHngGUzLkD4&list=RDbHngGUzLkD4&start_radio=1

Track 12:

TAYLOR SWIFT: ‘The Fate of Ophelia’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko70cExuzZM&list=RDko70cExuzZM&start_radio=1

Track 13:

SING-SING: ‘Far Away from Love’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cuOr2TCcQw&list=RD_cuOr2TCcQw&start_radio=1

Track 14:

SING-SING: ‘I’ll Be’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLhsWXlCmUo&list=RDrLhsWXlCmUo&start_radio=1

Track 15:

DURAN DURAN: ‘Someone Else Not Me’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyThuzD1vUo&list=RDRyThuzD1vUo&start_radio=1

Track 16:

EMMA ANDERSON: ‘The Presence’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCyo6Dq6Dvg&list=RDrCyo6Dq6Dvg&start_radio=1

Track 17:

EMMA ANDERSON: ‘Inter Light’ (MEMORIALS Mix):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3At7nRpepY&list=RDx3At7nRpepY&start_radio=1

Track 18:

GAVIN BRYARS: ‘Jesus’ Blood Never Failed Me Yet’ [1975 original]:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfJXXOFLzfQ&list=RDrfJXXOFLzfQ&start_radio=1&t=82s

Track 19:

CORPORATION OF ONE: ‘The Real Life’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AEp9-BOGOw&list=RD9AEp9-BOGOw&start_radio=1

Track 20:

RHYTHM IS RHYTHM: ‘Strings of Life’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGFw2qeUp0s&list=RDvGFw2qeUp0s&start_radio=1

Track 21:

ALISON LIMERICK: ‘Where Love Lives’:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGYdeSnux68&list=RDwGYdeSnux68&start_radio=1